A Muslim Response


This was a response from Abdul that I thought should be made into a post.

Abdul Basit says:
Augustine, Wayne & Billy,
Thank you very much for the very kind and beautiful address of the issue.
I actually didn’t have a full understanding of the way of how Christian Receives the Old Testimony. Any how, my goal is to show the rational of Muslims regarding their religion.
Regarding the Women Issue: first of all regarding the head cover:
in the early days of Islam, there was no law of covering the head till the Surah 33:59 came. http://quran.al-islam.com/Loader.aspx?pageid=738&BookID=15&page=1
There was only one Companion who thought they shall cover the whole body including the faces. While all other Companions believe the face can be shown which is very obvious from the Ayah.

Therefore, more than 95% of the Muslim women show their faces. (the only two country who apply the whole body cover is Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan) I am a Saudi Arabian with a Semi-Afghan Origin and below is why I think the most strict rule shall be used.

The law of a country is usually based on its environment. you cannot apply a law that cannot fit the environment. in the Arabian Peninsula there are people called the Desert Arab (9 phrases were warning Muslim of them e.g. Surah 9:97 & 48:11)
therefore, women are exposed to a danger life if they expose themselves to them. They would be protected if they covered the whole body. In Afghanistan, which is not a pleasant place to go. These people are also very danger and the rules must be strict to control them. They are drug manufacturer and very opium farmer. So Muslims Ruler (of course weaken already in Afghanistan) tend to apply the most stringent rules to keep the peace.

Wayne:
this is not true. What you are referring to is the arabic Culture which Islam came to change and it was changed in the early ages but the Arab kept their culture the same.
we have the same Mosaic law. the application of the law happened twice during our Prophet time and he avoided to punish those people but because of their insistence he applied the rule (search “Hadith Muslim 4202″) the and the third time was a man saw his wife with another man but since he couldn’t give the right evidence he made what we call mula’anah and divorced her (read http://www.alim.org/library/hadith/SHB/407/9 or search “Hadith Muslim 3553″).

What you mentioned is applied by the Desert Arab, Afghan and Canaan tribes not Islam.

Regarding whether the American Women are living better life or not:
I can think of many aspect that make the life better as follows:
1- is it fun: well Religion is not fun. If you want to have fun that cross the lines of the religion, do it and try not to brag about it. (more than 70% of the Muslims countries are very open and you can find women free to do even as prostitutes job and nobody even blame her. I brought that extreme to demonstrate the amount of freedom they have.) (25% are balanced and they can do what ever they like except (drinking alcohol and having an illegal affair publicly), 5%
2- Freedom to do social activities: for 95% of the Muslim women (except Afghan and Saudi Arabia), they have similar life to the European or American. for the Afghan, their life were about to be good till they were engaged in the war. For the Saudi’s, well, it is kind of difficult to judge but I am sure that 99.99% of them if given the choice between living in US or Saudi they would say Saudi. They feel more of their female side there. Life in the US is very tough for most women and some times a woman need to sells herself to live.
3- Freedom of unlawful Pregnancy: Well we have almost zero single Moms and very high percentage of the women don’t care much about bringing food to the table.
4- Economically: Women are kind of spoiled in most of the Muslims countries. (except those who are getting westernized). They are majority in the workforce of the countries. and they don’t get jobs such as Secretaries or the attractive waiters. They do what respected women do (clothes industry, Education, Health, Government Administration.) go to Egypt, Turkey, Malaysia, Pakistan, UAE, (etc.) , it is difficult to find women in a non-westernized facility working in a low type of work (such as waiter, secretary) Islam didn’t prohibit that at all, they use to work what ever suit them unless the work require manly actions.
5- Control: the wife of the prophet after his death is one of the biggest example on how women used to rule men. She took her Camel and gathered the men for the revenge of Caliphate Ottoman. and because of her, the biggest war after the prophet death was her’s and it was called the battle of the Camel.

Now My Question to you:

1- The stories of the Old Testimony for me shall not be distributed to everybody because such stories might reduce the huge sins in the eye of the receiver. this might be the reason the old Roman Church didn’t allow people to read the bible.
2- in the Old Testimony God made a promise by himself to give the land of Canaan to Israel by the power of the people (Jihad). If you read the both testimonies, you conclude that it is not the same God.
3- Augustine, you said that there are only two laws you are following, Love God and Love you neighbor. but there are certain things you are not allowed to do. like looking at strange women with sexual feeling. You might be able to love that women (in the name of God) but you cannot control your instinct the punishment of that is very harsh which make it better to take you eye out than having that punishment. Another example, Paul told you to eat from the butcher without asking where this meat came from, but if you know it was sacrifices of the pagan, then you are not allowed to eat from (the pagans . you cannot love god and disobey him in the same time.
4- The Women are liberated but still they were considered less than men, (1 Corinthians 11:9). The teaching of the Christian was only for men, In Islam, Women made almost the same contribution in the teaching of the religion.

best regards,

9 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. wayne2008sblogsite
    Jan 09, 2012 @ 10:32:58

    Abdul, are saying that in Saudi Arabia & Afghanistan, Christian Women are forced to cover their whole bodies? What happens if the Christian Women refused to cover their whole bodies?

    I noticed you said in Islamic countries that woman are allowed to be prostitutes….in America it is against the law for women to be prostitutes, should Americans change that law and allow prostitution to be legal?

    Reply

    • ProudMilitaryMom
      Jan 09, 2012 @ 12:59:36

      Wayne- let me give you and example. Women who serve in the United States military are required to adhere to muslim dress and behavior customs while serving in muslim dominated countries. For example, females serving in Turkey are not allowed to leave base unless escorted by a male. If they leave the base, they must cover up. No shorts, no short sleeves, head covering must be worn (no hair allowed to show) Red heads are in high demand in the sex slave trade- so red heads are discouraged from serving and if they do are encouraged not to leave the base.
      My DIL is currently serving in Afghanistan. Before deployment she was required to obtain muslim approved head gear to be worn under the helmet. Note- this IS NOT the uniform of the United States military and my personal opinion is that the damn boneheaded general who thought that up should be court martialed for requiring troops to defile the Uniform Standards.

      Reply

  2. wayne2008sblogsite
    Jan 09, 2012 @ 10:35:05

    Second question to Abdul, The origins of Allah was that Alla was the moon god so why did Islam change the worship of the moon into worshiping the Jewish and Christian God?

    Reply

  3. augustinehippo1
    Jan 09, 2012 @ 13:50:41

    “1- The stories of the Old Testimony for me shall not be distributed to everybody because such stories might reduce the huge sins in the eye of the receiver. this might be the reason the old Roman Church didn’t allow people to read the bible.”

    There have been between 4.7 and 6 billions copies of the bible that have been distributed throughout the world, in 438 translations of the full Bible in various languages. This does not count all the copies of the Jewish “Tanakh”: the Torah (“Law”), or Pentateuch, the five books of Moses; Nevi’im (“Prophets”), and Ketuvim (“Writings,”). I’m not sure why Mr. Abdul Basit could make the claim that certain stories are not available. My children have the entire bible including the OT on their I Phones?

    “2- in the Old Testimony God made a promise by himself to give the land of Canaan to Israel by the power of the people (Jihad). If you read the both testimonies, you conclude that it is not the same God”.

    I’m not sure what the point here is or what he means by “both testimonies”.
    I think it is pretty clear what God said:
    “Moses My servant is dead; now therefore arise, cross this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel. 3 Every place on which the sole of your foot treads, I have given it to you, just as I spoke to Moses. 4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon, even as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and as far as the Great Sea toward the setting of the sun will be your territory. 5 No man will be able to stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I have been with Moses, I will be with you; I will not fail you or forsake you.
    Josh 1:2-5 (NASB)

    “3- Augustine, you said that there are only two laws you are following, Love God and Love you neighbor. but there are certain things you are not allowed to do. like looking at strange women with sexual feeling. You might be able to love that women (in the name of God) but you cannot control your instinct the punishment of that is very harsh which make it better to take you eye out than having that punishment. Another example, Paul told you to eat from the butcher without asking where this meat came from, but if you know it was sacrifices of the pagan, then you are not allowed to eat from (the pagans . you cannot love god and disobey him in the same time.”

    “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, ” ‘ YOU SHALL LOVE THE Lord YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘ YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”Matt 22:36-40 (NASB)

    The NT Christian does not have a written code of conduct which he must observe in order to stay in good standing with God. We are already viewed as being in total perfect good standing based on the work and sacrifice of The Son of God, Jesus Christ. There are certain behaviors that we are to avoid because they result in negative consequences for us as a practical matter.

    Paul stated: All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Cor 6:12 (NASB)

    When Jesus was speaking about lusting after a woman and removing ones eye to avoid the punishment, he was speaking to an Old Covenant audience, who was attempting to live according the the principles of the Ot mosaic law. They were claiming innocence and purity based on the fact that they had not committed the act of adultery. Jesus was pointing out that sin begins in the mind and thoughts and are just as serious as the action. He was establishing the concept of spiritual purity and the role of the indwelling Holy Spirit in influencing our thoughts and therefore action. He was taking the law to a higher order.

    This just points out how context is so important when attempting to understand biblical teaching.

    As far as the meat thing. Paul is simply pointing out that he knew eating meat sacrificed to idols meant absolutely nothing spiritually. Then he warns others like himself to be sensitive to those who might be confused on this issue, and if they still felt it was sinful, then just don’t eat that kind of meat in front of them. I can drink a beer and go home, but I will not do it in front of a person who has a problem with alcoholism. Drinking a beer is not sin to me, but I must be sensitive to where my Christian brother is in his life.

    “4- The Women are liberated but still they were considered less than men, (1 Corinthians 11:9). The teaching of the Christian was only for men, In Islam, Women made almost the same contribution in the teaching of the religion.”

    Paul is just pointing out the role of the man as leader of the woman, not dictator.The man was created first and the woman to complete him. They are just two side of the same coin .

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 3:28 (NASB)

    Reply

  4. abdulbasit I. Gari
    Jan 10, 2012 @ 00:31:52

    Wayne,
    According to the Islamic rules, nothing happen to them, because the Hijab is only obligatory to Muslim. the Hijab was meant to distinguish the believer from non-believer and protect Believers from harassment. (Surah 33:59)
    According to the Saudi Arabian Law and the Afghanistan Law, they are not allowed to go around without Hijab and this due to the nature of the people over there.

    and regarding the second question, the Origin of Allah is “Al” means the and “ilah” means god. I do not know where this theory about Alla from the moon god. The arab never worshiped the moon. The arab in Makkah used to worship statues called Ozza, Manat, ALLat and and Madina they used to worship a statue called Hobal as I remember in Taif they used to worship other statue. Arabic and Hebrew are the same origin. we say ilah and they say ilia and we say allahom and they elohim, some other words are exactly the same such as Bab (door), Yam (sea), weekdays are almost the same shebit, ahad, thinain, thaloot, arbia, khamish, but I don’t know what they call Friday.

    Billy, we start seeing gays around in all Muslim countries. God Bless America.

    Augustine:
    1- what I am trying to say, these action will give justification for other to do it saying “if king David (the chosen one) did it, why not me”

    2- what I mean that God used to be very tough:
    a- Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.(Numbers 15:35)
    b- Then the LORD spoke to Moses saying, “Send out for yourself men so that they may spy out the land of Canaan, which I am going to give to the sons of Israel.
    c- (because the Israelian said:”We are not able to go up against the people, for they are too strong for us.”) The LORD said to Moses “…I will smite them with pestilence and dispossess them, and I will make you into a nation greater and mightier than they.” but after Moses asked for Mercy God forgive them.

    God in the OT was encouraging people to fight and NT God is very Lean and he asked the people not to fight any one. As I said it was God order not newspaper.

    3- In Islam there are people we call Sofies they are driven by Passion toward God and His messenger. these people tend to act very strangely. therefore I don’t like passion driven thinking it well be confusing. but this difference is cannot be resolved in a debate.

    4- the matter is not just lead they will rule over them.
    16 To the woman He (God) said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth,
    In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband,
    And he will rule over you.” (Genesis 3:16) (NASB)
    16 He told the Woman: “I’ll multiply your pains in childbirth; you’ll give birth to your babies in pain. You’ll want to please your husband, but he’ll lord it over you.” (Genesis 3:16) (MSG)
    — I Know that Christian understanding that the death of Jesus to forgive the sin of Adam but I don’t have references to the forgiveness of Eve’s sin —-
    Regarding Being in the Church, Women are not allowed to speak and shall ask their husbands at home to learn anything. Paul Instruction Was very Clear:
    34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. 36 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? (1 Corinthians 14:34)
    and they shall cover their head too.

    Women in Islam used to and still ask the scholars in the Masjed (our church).
    we believe in equal rights but men and women are not equal in life opportunities . the following are two verses from quran:
    1- And their Lord hath accepted of them (for their prayers), and answered them: “Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: ye are members, one of another; those who have left their homes, and were driven out therefrom, and suffered harm in My Cause, and fought and were slain, verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath – a reward from the Presence of Allah – and from His Presence is the best of rewards.” (Quran 3:195)
    2- “He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed – whether man or woman – and is a Believer; such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): therein will they have abundance without measure.
    (Quran 40:40)

    Reply

    • The Conservative Hill Billy
      Jan 10, 2012 @ 13:52:40

      Abdul states:”Billy, we start seeing gays around in all Muslim countries. God Bless America.” So how is it America’s fault that you are seeing gays in you country? They are no more than sinners just like the rest of us. Our God hates the sins but loves the sinner. He allows for forgiveness. How does Islam respond to gays? Killing them?

      Reply

  5. wayne2008sblogsite
    Jan 10, 2012 @ 13:32:59

    Mohammad worshiped the moon-god Alli-at and when he wrote the Koran he had sex rituals carried over into the Koran the same sex rituals that Alli-at the moon-god required. Those were later taken out of the Koran. I will get more information for you Abdul..

    Reply

  6. abdulbasit I. Gari
    Jan 10, 2012 @ 18:56:48

    billy,

    We suppose to do to them what pleases the God. We do to them similar to what God did to them. The act of sodomy get Allah (God) very angry. and because Sodom use to do it, Even the prayers of Abraham couldn’t save them.

    13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”
    24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. (Genesis 19:13)

    However, we cannot make such action unless four witnesses saw those “sodomite” in action and can describe their private parts of the body very clearly each one separately.

    (Wayne, I really don’t have any references to what you say). It is a very known history for 1 billion that Muhammad and his cousin never worshiped but Allah on the religion of Abraham. we have pre-Islamic history about those Arab people who worshiped god before Islam. (History is not debatable)

    Reply

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